Forum:About Danuhau's status

I had originally intended to create a forum discussing this topic months ago, but the general attitude towards the events which made me think it necessary suggested that such a forum would have done nothing at the time. However, given Boggy B's recent [ block] and change of heart on the matter, I figured it was time for this forum to be created so that this issue could finally be discussed in the proper location (and hopefully by the proper people, too!). So, without further ado...

At best At worst '''At best, I believe that Danuhau has not used his admin rights particularly well in the ~8 months he has had them. At worst, I believe that having him in the role of admin/bureaucrat here has caused more harm to this wiki than good.''' As a result, I believe he should no longer possess these rights. My reasons for these assertions are as follows:
 * 1) For starters, although it is not my intent to somehow imply that the positive contributions Danuhau made on this wiki were not helpful, the majority of the contributions he has been making do not require admin rights, nor are they enhanced by having admin rights.
 * 2) *To elaborate, Danuhau has [ made] [ exactly] [ four] [ edits] (beyond those necessary for setting up achievements) which required admin rights to make. Of those, all of the changes made were minor: two were rearrangements of elements in the top navbar, and two were changes to the main page. Of the latter two, the former was a bit of an unusual choice (the news template (which, despite its name, appears to have served as a bit of a "call to action" for visitors to the wiki) he removed no longer existed, but this was because he [ moved it] to a new title), while the latter technically did nothing (double curly braces (syntax: ) assume the template namespace by default, so adding "Template:" there was redundant). Every other edit Danuhau made on this wiki could have easily been made without admin rights.
 * 3) While we're on the subject of editing, Danuhau has over 1100 edits now. This presumably indicates a large amount of effort which went into improving the wiki. To an extent, this is true. However, considering strings of edits like [ this], [ this], and [ this] (the first instances of such that I found in Danuhau's contributions, which all could have been made in half as many edits each (or even in one edit each)), it appears that Danuhau believes in quantity of edits over quality. In most cases, this would be a bit bizarre and inefficient, but not particularly noteworthy. However, Danuhau also [ added that he passed 1000 edits] as an item on the front page wikinews feed (incidentally, he also added an entry to said news feed about [ passing 1000 achievement points]). To me, this makes the instances where a large number of minor edits are made to a single page in a short period of time look like edit farming, a bad-faith practice which is generally not looked upon too favorably on wikis.
 * 4) As for the issues which I contend actively harm the wiki: first, there are the particulars of Danuhau's blocking practices. (Full block log, for convenience)
 * 5) *Now, it is not particularly difficult to block a user; what is difficult is knowing when to block, why to block, and for how long a user should be blocked. Ideally, as mentioned in this staff blog, blocks should generally only be given out if it is believed that the block will prevent damage to the wiki. Beyond blocking users for vandalism, I do not believe Danuhau has good enough judgement to be trusted with this tool.
 * 6) **As an example, we have the issue of [ the first in this series of blocks] (at the moment, I'm not too concerned about the massive increase in block time with the second entry, as [ Danuhau claimed that was an accident]). The reason given for this block ("Bad attitude") is rather vague, and the length of time the block is for (3 months) seems a bit disproportionate (a sentiment also echoed by [ all of] [ the other] [ active users] at the time). This alone is questionable enough. However, when [ Q*terplx asked why he had been blocked], the [ response he received] essentially just said that "admins can block for any reason" and gave no further explanation. Considering how Q*terplx was a good-faith contributor right up until he was blocked (and I would assert that said block hurt the wiki as a result), I would expect there to be some very good reasons for such a block, but said reasons have not materialized (and not for lack of asking; several requests for proof were made in this (unfortunately now deleted) forum). In this case, I can't help but conclude that Danuhau did not have the best interests of the wiki in mind when he made this block, regardless of his claims to the contrary.
 * 7) **Additionally, it appears that something similar to the above has happened again with Boggy B's aforementioned block. From what I can tell, the context for this block is [ this edit] on Danuhau's talk page, in which Boggy B claimed to be leaving the wiki. Now, enforcing a user's heat-of-the-moment decision to leave the wiki with an infinite block seems to me like it would be highly inadvisable, as minds can (and, by the looks of the messages Boggy B posted on Community Central, do) change pretty easily. Considering how the user in question was constructive, highly active, and even described by Danuhau himself as "vital to the wiki", I can't really think of a way that him being blocked (especially indefinitely) could be spun as a boon to the wiki.
 * 8) I also do not believe that Danuhau's attitude towards other users and their edits is particularly healthy for the wiki.
 * 9) *To start off with something relatively minor, but still potentially harmful: Danuhau's usage of the rollback tool on clear good faith edits is a bit disconcerting, as the tool is historically only supposed to be used on vandalism due to leaving no room for an explanatory edit summary. This just seems more likely than not to drive well-meaning users away from the wiki.
 * 10) *To move onto a somewhat more severe point, we have [ this edit] (which is a response to [ this edit], which is in turn a response to [ this]). Putting aside the statement about potentially blocking PartHunter for "...[wanting] to make the wiki messy" (which is clearly not an assumption that is made based on good faith), I would like to point out that claiming he is "in charge" and saying that people should not do things which he says they should not do (in a case where, I might point out, PartHunter had strong reasons rooted in factual workings of MediaWiki software for his actions) make it sound like Danuhau thinks that he "owns" the wiki, or is acting as a steward for it until Orangitu gets back, or something. I would like to point out that this is a common mistake; the wiki is owned by its community, not any one user or admin, or even any group of users or admins.
 * 11) As a final point which also features prominently in several of the other points here (especially Q*terplx's block), I would like to express that Danuhau's general lack of willingness to be transparent in several of his actions concerns me. Considering how wikis are based upon giving one's fellow contributors a lot of trust (trusting them enough to assume good faith, for instance), it is a little bit disturbing for Danuhau to say "...I was not obligated to inform you as a random contributor." or "...I am not obligated to give any further reason than the basic formality." (whether there was more info to give or not) to users, even those who have been blocked or those without accounts. In my opinion, this lack of information sharing shows a lack of trust in the community, which in turn breeds a lack of trust in the admin (as shown by this forum existing at all).

Hopefully, that was a clear enough write-up of why I believe that Danuhau is not suited to adminship/bureaucratship on this wiki. Thank you for reading. Oscuritaforze (talk) 08:24, October 24, 2014 (UTC)

Comments
Wow, that was really ALOT... I just have to sum up why I did the way I did in different situations. I hope all of the users who might want to state their opinion here will read my arguments aswell before they decide.


 * 1) I see your point about my edit count. Since this wiki only has 350 pages, I had to edit pages several times to reach that number. I often edit several pages at once, and I might only spot one thing I can change before I skip to the next window, and when I check it up again, I see another "flaw".
 * 2) Some users might seem to be "good faith users", but this does not always stay. Q*terplx did good at first, but he became rude. When I corrected something in his edits, he often corrected it back. Boggy did some useful contributions aswell, but he had a bad temper and was really rude towards some. At first, I spared him because he made a big effort here, but I could not be his guard dog for any longer, and decided to block him. After all, he said that his goal was to get admin rights, and when he did not get it, he was going to leave forever. I used the term "vital" once, and it was just for appreciation of his effort. I regret this now, since it has been dragget in several times, and he was not really the reason why this wiki lived.
 * 3) My will is to make this wiki structured, and when someone try to oppose that, I am not happy at all. I know that I did not answer nice to PartHunter that one time, but I regret it. He has proved to be useful, so I have given him positive feedback on later contributions. I did never state that I owned the wiki, I said that I was in charge, since I am the only active administrator.
 * 4) There are several reasons why I don't inform everyone why I block someone/why I acted in some way: It would be discomforting for several users if I told everyone why I act. I am an admin here, meaning that I administrate the wiki, and moderate the users. I cannot constantly inform every contributor why I do what I do.

I'm sorry that I cannot answer so long, but I have to spent the evening with my family. I am not perfect, but I do the best I can to maintain a good community here.

- Danuhau (talk) 18:05, October 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, thanks for responding more reasonably than I was expecting. Perhaps this discussion will go somewhere yet! Anyway:


 * In that case, I would suggest using the "preview" and "show changes" buttons rather than publishing edits right away. This way, you can see what changes you have made so far and how the page will look once you publish, which makes it a lot easier to make a whole bunch of small changes in one edit rather than in 10+ edits.
 * Before addressing this point, I would strongly, strongly recommend reading "Help:Assuming good faith", as this is a principle which wikis quite frankly cannot survive without, and I've noticed that it plays a key role in a lot of the issues I raised above. Now, on to the response:
 * In general, good faith contributors will sometimes have disagreements, and they will also sometimes behave poorly. However, the former will naturally occur in wikis and can often lead to positive change, the latter can usually be corrected without blocking, and neither of these things actually indicates that a user is no longer acting in good faith.
 * The thing with Q*terplx is that no warning or explanation was given prior to his block, and he didn't even have an opportunity to change whatever was "wrong" with his contributions before you blocked him (and it took an additional message to even get him the ability to discuss the block on-wiki). The situation escalated as it did due to the rest of the circumstances surrounding the block (block length disproportionate with the given reason, no evidence for the additional explanations, refusal to actually tell the blocked user himself why he was blocked, etc.), but the fact that the block came out of nowhere in the first place is (as it now occurs to me) the crux of the issue. And honestly: looking at his previous contributions here and on other wikis, there is very little doubt in my mind that if you had pointed out where you thought he was being rude and asked him to tone it down, he would have either agreed and complied or disagreed and discussed the issue with you.
 * (I'll respond to the part about Boggy B in multiple bullet points, as there is quite a bit of ground to cover here.)
 * About you calling him "vital to the wiki": the problem is that the context you said that phrase in was to convince him to make an account because you believed he deserved admin rights (though naturally "appreciation of his effort" would play a part in that). You are obviously free to change your mind about that, but Boggy B making it a goal of his to become an admin here is not really surprising in that light. And, frankly? Just looking at the edits from late August/early September using [ Special:RecentChanges] shows that Boggy B was practically the only source of contributions for weeks at a time leading up to his block (with the exception of an editing spree by AcerEvan). As a result, describing him as "vital to the wiki" is a statement which has some truth to it.
 * Now, the circumstances behind Boggy B's block are a bit different in that he actually has done things which are almost unequivocally worthy of being blocked for. Thing is, considering how he hadn't actually done those things in months at the time of his block, it either looks like this is a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation in that the thing that caused him to be blocked was far less severe than things he did long ago, or you blocked him for leaving the wiki. In either case, I stand by my initial statement that indefinitely blocking this user does not help the wiki, as the tool which stops the rudeness (which, as I've mentioned, can be handled in other ways) also stops the constructive edits.
 * It's good to hear that you regret the rudeness of your message to PartHunter, but I am still concerned by the content of said message. There's no reason why you can't have your say in what you think keeps the wiki structured, but other users should be able to do the same. The fact that you didn't respond to PartHunter's actual reasoning for categorizing categories* and instead said what you said seems to show that you do not feel the same way. This brings me back to my original point: in spite of the fact that you did not outright say that you own the wiki, your words in this situation still seem to imply that you believe something of the sort.
 * First off, I'm not actually expecting you to create a blog with detailed explanations every time you make a block, or anything of the sort. However, two things to keep in mind:
 * It is important to only block with good reason if you don't want the wiki to eventually die due to lack of contributors (which is the principle behind Wikia's general policy of not interfering in local issues, by the way), and
 * Politely explaining the reasoning behind a block when the blocked user asks is helpful in that it reduces the probability of their repeating what got them blocked in the first place.
 * On another note, what exactly do you mean by the statement "It would be discomforting for several users if I told everyone why I act"? Are you saying that you think some users are uncomfortable with admin transparency, or...?




 * For the record, this (taken from here) is what it looks like when you view a category page which has other categories in it.


 * Regarding the last statements: I'm the last person who would begrudge you being away from the wiki due to anything at all in real life, especially family time. Take all the time you need to respond to this forum as fully as you want to.


 * Oscuritaforze (talk) 00:57, October 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * As I said, I am not perfect. I will do what it takes to change if needed. I have now read through the article you linked aswell. Yes, I try to be reasonable, but sometimes it can be hard to be transparent. An admin cannot only be transparent, since I need to keep order here. My biggest concern at the moment is that the staff is suffering, since I did not get too much time with Orangitu before I was left on my own here.


 * I do want to make the right decisions when it comes to blockage of users. When I block them, I always provide my reasons. Sadly, when it comes to the disagreement with Boggy, he kept on stating that I had not given him any reasons. I do my best to keep this wiki alive. For example, I post recruitment links on facebook pages and groups linked with Worms and Team17. Also, a little bit off topic, I have re-added the template now known as "Recruit". I did not feel that "News" was a proper name for that template. But anyways, I will try to have at least two new admins in place by the end of the year.


 * Having a bigger staff is always a pro. I can then discuss my actions and thoughts on this wiki and how it should be managed. Oh, and about Q*terplx: The users hanging around here at the time probably heard it, but I do not think that you knew that I had talked to him on facebook before I blocked him. He came to me, and he was not friendly... So I determined that he was not fit for this wiki. And another thing about blockage: I did request a disable of anonymous editing here, which they granted. What do you think about it?


 * Your last note: The statement I came with explained that I did not want to expose the ones who had done a bad thing. A block could give them a punishment and time to think about ther action, but I could not go around to tell everyone because I would not have been comfortable if someone else should tell everyone what I did if I did anything wrong.


 * As you may have understood, I am trying to be reasonable and forthcoming here. Maybe you still want to "take me to trial" as in demoting me, but I doubt that this is the right time. I advise you to bring it up once more when this community has reached an expansion, as of more users contribution here. Last, but not least: I remember that we have had disputes before, but I do not hold anything against you for that, and I hope you have moved on from that point aswell.


 * - Danuhau (talk) 20:47, October 28, 2014 (UTC)

Support
...

Oppose

 * 1) I just hate when people can't see their mistakes. An admin has the responsibility to clear out the "scum" of the wiki, and any other negative influence. When I saw this argument, I wanted to check up before taking sides. The points from Oscu were valid, but I think Danu answered good and took responsibility for his actions. If a user is bloked, he or she must acknowledge this, in stead of calling himself innocent.
 * 2) This admin has done a lot for this wikia. Of course some of his edits were minor, but an admin has to do every sort of work, not only "admins only" tasks. - TTTEUK (talk) 18:23, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the support :)